Discussion:
trump
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Jonathan Marshall
2016-03-09 01:30:27 UTC
Permalink
Sorry to keep labouring this, but this is an interesting article on Trump - perhaps the first interesting article I've seen by an opponent who has bothered to listen to his endless rambling.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/07/donald-trump-why-americans-support

some snips

Last week, I decided to watch several hours of Trump speeches for myself. I saw the man ramble and boast and threaten and even seem to gloat when protesters were ejected from the arenas in which he spoke. I was disgusted by these things, as I have been disgusted by Trump for 20 years. But I also noticed something surprising. In each of the speeches I watched, Trump spent a good part of his time talking about an entirely legitimate issue, one that could even be called left-wing.

Yes, Donald Trump talked about trade. In fact, to judge by how much time he spent talking about it, trade may be his single biggest concern – not white supremacy.....

It seems to obsess him: the destructive free-trade deals our leaders have made, the many companies that have moved their production facilities to other lands, the phone calls he will make to those companies’ CEOs in order to threaten them with steep tariffs unless they move back to the US.

Trump embellished this vision with another favorite left-wing idea: under his leadership, the government would “start competitive bidding in the drug industry.” (“We don’t competitively bid!” he marveled – another true fact, a legendary boondoggle brought to you by the George W Bush administration.) Trump extended the critique to the military-industrial complex, describing how the government is forced to buy lousy but expensive airplanes thanks to the power of industry lobbyists.....

I thought of all the arguments over trade that we’ve had in this country since the early 1990s, all the sweet words from our economists about the scientifically proven benevolence of free trade, all the ways in which our newspapers mock people who say that treaties like the North Atlantic Free Trade Agreement allow companies to move jobs to Mexico [when that is what happens]....

[W]hen people [actually] talk to white, working-class Trump supporters, instead of simply imagining what they might say, they find that what most concerns these people is the economy and their place in it.... As far as issues are concerned, “immigration” placed third among the matters such voters care about, far behind their number one concern: “good jobs / the economy.”

************

I'd remark in passing that we had a 'racist party' in Australia - indeed that was all that was ever reported about them, and yes they were furiously hostile to 'outsiders' and non-whites, but they too were massively concerned about the devastation of the economy produced by free-market ideologies - however that part of their project was rarely to never reported - perhaps it could not be allowed to be a common topic of discourse while racism could. I don't know... (I only know about it, because the wife of a friend of mine was a member for a while, and because of one newspaper article).

On another note- here is someone else arguing that Cruz is even worse than Trump...

https://theconversation.com/why-id-vote-for-donald-trump-55817

jon





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Subscribe Wryting-L Beth Garrison
2016-03-09 03:11:16 UTC
Permalink
He says what he thinks will get him what he wants. All that tripe about how he'd make these companies pay tariffs. It's nonsense. The employees of Trumps Enterprises are more familiar with his policies 
 And he doesn't believe in a living wage. Or anything but himself. He's known.

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.
  Original Message  
From: Jonathan Marshall
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2016 8:30 PM
To: ***@listserv.wvu.edu
Reply To: Philosophy and Psychology of Cyberspace
Subject: trump

Sorry to keep labouring this, but this is an interesting article on Trump - perhaps the first interesting article I've seen by an opponent who has bothered to listen to his endless rambling.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/07/donald-trump-why-americans-support

some snips

Last week, I decided to watch several hours of Trump speeches for myself. I saw the man ramble and boast and threaten and even seem to gloat when protesters were ejected from the arenas in which he spoke. I was disgusted by these things, as I have been disgusted by Trump for 20 years. But I also noticed something surprising. In each of the speeches I watched, Trump spent a good part of his time talking about an entirely legitimate issue, one that could even be called left-wing.

Yes, Donald Trump talked about trade. In fact, to judge by how much time he spent talking about it, trade may be his single biggest concern – not white supremacy.....

It seems to obsess him: the destructive free-trade deals our leaders have made, the many companies that have moved their production facilities to other lands, the phone calls he will make to those companies’ CEOs in order to threaten them with steep tariffs unless they move back to the US.

Trump embellished this vision with another favorite left-wing idea: under his leadership, the government would “start competitive bidding in the drug industry.” (“We don’t competitively bid!” he marveled – another true fact, a legendary boondoggle brought to you by the George W Bush administration.) Trump extended the critique to the military-industrial complex, describing how the government is forced to buy lousy but expensive airplanes thanks to the power of industry lobbyists.....

I thought of all the arguments over trade that we’ve had in this country since the early 1990s, all the sweet words from our economists about the scientifically proven benevolence of free trade, all the ways in which our newspapers mock people who say that treaties like the North Atlantic Free Trade Agreement allow companies to move jobs to Mexico [when that is what happens]....

[W]hen people [actually] talk to white, working-class Trump supporters, instead of simply imagining what they might say, they find that what most concerns these people is the economy and their place in it.... As far as issues are concerned, “immigration” placed third among the matters such voters care about, far behind their number one concern: “good jobs / the economy.”

************

I'd remark in passing that we had a 'racist party' in Australia - indeed that was all that was ever reported about them, and yes they were furiously hostile to 'outsiders' and non-whites, but they too were massively concerned about the devastation of the economy produced by free-market ideologies - however that part of their project was rarely to never reported - perhaps it could not be allowed to be a common topic of discourse while racism could. I don't know... (I only know about it, because the wife of a friend of mine was a member for a while, and because of one newspaper article).

On another note- here is someone else arguing that Cruz is even worse than Trump...

https://theconversation.com/why-id-vote-for-donald-trump-55817

jon





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Jonathan Marshall
2016-03-09 04:41:32 UTC
Permalink
I may have to say again, that I do not believe Trump, nor is there any evidence to suggest that he has rational means to attain any of his announced goals.

However, it is interesting if he is talking a non-free trade, anti-free market agenda and it is not being discussed in the media.

This silence is not really that surprising, such things cannot really be talked about unless made overly academic. What is surprising is that so many people seem to hate Clinton, or assume she is more corrupt than Trump or Cruz or whatever... The Republican media seem to have done such a thorough hatchet job on her, that people don't even seem to bother to evaluate her policies.

What might happen is that if Trump keeps up the anti free market spiel, then he might pick up some of those people who currently support Sanders, and thus win the presidency.

This would, I think, be a disaster for the world. It would also be a disaster if Cruz won.

jon
________________________________________
From: Philosophy and Psychology of Cyberspace <***@listserv.wvu.edu> on behalf of Subscribe Wryting-L Beth Garrison <***@GMAIL.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, 9 March 2016 2:11 PM
To: ***@listserv.wvu.edu
Subject: Re: trump

He says what he thinks will get him what he wants. All that tripe about how he'd make these companies pay tariffs. It's nonsense. The employees of Trumps Enterprises are more familiar with his policies
And he doesn't believe in a living wage. Or anything but himself. He's known.

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.
Original Message
From: Jonathan Marshall
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2016 8:30 PM
To: ***@listserv.wvu.edu
Reply To: Philosophy and Psychology of Cyberspace
Subject: trump

Sorry to keep labouring this, but this is an interesting article on Trump - perhaps the first interesting article I've seen by an opponent who has bothered to listen to his endless rambling.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/07/donald-trump-why-americans-support

some snips

Last week, I decided to watch several hours of Trump speeches for myself. I saw the man ramble and boast and threaten and even seem to gloat when protesters were ejected from the arenas in which he spoke. I was disgusted by these things, as I have been disgusted by Trump for 20 years. But I also noticed something surprising. In each of the speeches I watched, Trump spent a good part of his time talking about an entirely legitimate issue, one that could even be called left-wing.

Yes, Donald Trump talked about trade. In fact, to judge by how much time he spent talking about it, trade may be his single biggest concern – not white supremacy.....

It seems to obsess him: the destructive free-trade deals our leaders have made, the many companies that have moved their production facilities to other lands, the phone calls he will make to those companies’ CEOs in order to threaten them with steep tariffs unless they move back to the US.

Trump embellished this vision with another favorite left-wing idea: under his leadership, the government would “start competitive bidding in the drug industry.” (“We don’t competitively bid!” he marveled – another true fact, a legendary boondoggle brought to you by the George W Bush administration.) Trump extended the critique to the military-industrial complex, describing how the government is forced to buy lousy but expensive airplanes thanks to the power of industry lobbyists.....

I thought of all the arguments over trade that we’ve had in this country since the early 1990s, all the sweet words from our economists about the scientifically proven benevolence of free trade, all the ways in which our newspapers mock people who say that treaties like the North Atlantic Free Trade Agreement allow companies to move jobs to Mexico [when that is what happens]....

[W]hen people [actually] talk to white, working-class Trump supporters, instead of simply imagining what they might say, they find that what most concerns these people is the economy and their place in it.... As far as issues are concerned, “immigration” placed third among the matters such voters care about, far behind their number one concern: “good jobs / the economy.”

************

I'd remark in passing that we had a 'racist party' in Australia - indeed that was all that was ever reported about them, and yes they were furiously hostile to 'outsiders' and non-whites, but they too were massively concerned about the devastation of the economy produced by free-market ideologies - however that part of their project was rarely to never reported - perhaps it could not be allowed to be a common topic of discourse while racism could. I don't know... (I only know about it, because the wife of a friend of mine was a member for a while, and because of one newspaper article).

On another note- here is someone else arguing that Cruz is even worse than Trump...

https://theconversation.com/why-id-vote-for-donald-trump-55817

jon





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Subscribe Wryting-L Beth Garrison
2016-03-09 13:25:00 UTC
Permalink
It's a terrifying prospect. I know people who are voting for Bernie who say if he doesn't get the nomination, they will vote‎ Trump. 


Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.
  Original Message  
From: Jonathan Marshall
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2016 11:41 PM
To: ***@listserv.wvu.edu
Reply To: Philosophy and Psychology of Cyberspace
Subject: Re: trump

I may have to say again, that I do not believe Trump, nor is there any evidence to suggest that he has rational means to attain any of his announced goals.

However, it is interesting if he is talking a non-free trade, anti-free market agenda and it is not being discussed in the media.

This silence is not really that surprising, such things cannot really be talked about unless made overly academic. What is surprising is that so many people seem to hate Clinton, or assume she is more corrupt than Trump or Cruz or whatever... The Republican media seem to have done such a thorough hatchet job on her, that people don't even seem to bother to evaluate her policies.

What might happen is that if Trump keeps up the anti free market spiel, then he might pick up some of those people who currently support Sanders, and thus win the presidency.

This would, I think, be a disaster for the world. It would also be a disaster if Cruz won.

jon
________________________________________
From: Philosophy and Psychology of Cyberspace <***@listserv.wvu.edu> on behalf of Subscribe Wryting-L Beth Garrison <***@GMAIL.COM>
Sent: Wednesday, 9 March 2016 2:11 PM
To: ***@listserv.wvu.edu
Subject: Re: trump

He says what he thinks will get him what he wants. All that tripe about how he'd make these companies pay tariffs. It's nonsense. The employees of Trumps Enterprises are more familiar with his policies
And he doesn't believe in a living wage. Or anything but himself. He's known.

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.
Original Message
From: Jonathan Marshall
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2016 8:30 PM
To: ***@listserv.wvu.edu
Reply To: Philosophy and Psychology of Cyberspace
Subject: trump

Sorry to keep labouring this, but this is an interesting article on Trump - perhaps the first interesting article I've seen by an opponent who has bothered to listen to his endless rambling.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/07/donald-trump-why-americans-support

some snips

Last week, I decided to watch several hours of Trump speeches for myself. I saw the man ramble and boast and threaten and even seem to gloat when protesters were ejected from the arenas in which he spoke. I was disgusted by these things, as I have been disgusted by Trump for 20 years. But I also noticed something surprising. In each of the speeches I watched, Trump spent a good part of his time talking about an entirely legitimate issue, one that could even be called left-wing.

Yes, Donald Trump talked about trade. In fact, to judge by how much time he spent talking about it, trade may be his single biggest concern – not white supremacy.....

It seems to obsess him: the destructive free-trade deals our leaders have made, the many companies that have moved their production facilities to other lands, the phone calls he will make to those companies’ CEOs in order to threaten them with steep tariffs unless they move back to the US.

Trump embellished this vision with another favorite left-wing idea: under his leadership, the government would “start competitive bidding in the drug industry.” (“We don’t competitively bid!” he marveled – another true fact, a legendary boondoggle brought to you by the George W Bush administration.) Trump extended the critique to the military-industrial complex, describing how the government is forced to buy lousy but expensive airplanes thanks to the power of industry lobbyists.....

I thought of all the arguments over trade that we’ve had in this country since the early 1990s, all the sweet words from our economists about the scientifically proven benevolence of free trade, all the ways in which our newspapers mock people who say that treaties like the North Atlantic Free Trade Agreement allow companies to move jobs to Mexico [when that is what happens]....

[W]hen people [actually] talk to white, working-class Trump supporters, instead of simply imagining what they might say, they find that what most concerns these people is the economy and their place in it.... As far as issues are concerned, “immigration” placed third among the matters such voters care about, far behind their number one concern: “good jobs / the economy.”

************

I'd remark in passing that we had a 'racist party' in Australia - indeed that was all that was ever reported about them, and yes they were furiously hostile to 'outsiders' and non-whites, but they too were massively concerned about the devastation of the economy produced by free-market ideologies - however that part of their project was rarely to never reported - perhaps it could not be allowed to be a common topic of discourse while racism could. I don't know... (I only know about it, because the wife of a friend of mine was a member for a while, and because of one newspaper article).

On another note- here is someone else arguing that Cruz is even worse than Trump...

https://theconversation.com/why-id-vote-for-donald-trump-55817

jon





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this message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the
sender expressly, and with authority, states them to be the views of the University of Technology Sydney.
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DISCLAIMER: This email message and any accompanying attachments may contain confidential information.
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attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete
this message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the
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Alan Sondheim
2016-03-09 05:21:55 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for forwarding this, Jon - this rings absolutely true -

- Alan

On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 8:30 PM, Jonathan Marshall <
Post by Jonathan Marshall
Sorry to keep labouring this, but this is an interesting article on Trump
- perhaps the first interesting article I've seen by an opponent who has
bothered to listen to his endless rambling.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/07/donald-trump-why-americans-support
some snips
Last week, I decided to watch several hours of Trump speeches for myself.
I saw the man ramble and boast and threaten and even seem to gloat when
protesters were ejected from the arenas in which he spoke. I was disgusted
by these things, as I have been disgusted by Trump for 20 years. But I also
noticed something surprising. In each of the speeches I watched, Trump
spent a good part of his time talking about an entirely legitimate issue,
one that could even be called left-wing.
Yes, Donald Trump talked about trade. In fact, to judge by how much time
he spent talking about it, trade may be his single biggest concern – not
white supremacy.....
It seems to obsess him: the destructive free-trade deals our leaders have
made, the many companies that have moved their production facilities to
other lands, the phone calls he will make to those companies’ CEOs in order
to threaten them with steep tariffs unless they move back to the US.
Trump embellished this vision with another favorite left-wing idea: under
his leadership, the government would “start competitive bidding in the drug
industry.” (“We don’t competitively bid!” he marveled – another true fact,
a legendary boondoggle brought to you by the George W Bush administration.)
Trump extended the critique to the military-industrial complex, describing
how the government is forced to buy lousy but expensive airplanes thanks to
the power of industry lobbyists.....
I thought of all the arguments over trade that we’ve had in this country
since the early 1990s, all the sweet words from our economists about the
scientifically proven benevolence of free trade, all the ways in which our
newspapers mock people who say that treaties like the North Atlantic Free
Trade Agreement allow companies to move jobs to Mexico [when that is what
happens]....
[W]hen people [actually] talk to white, working-class Trump supporters,
instead of simply imagining what they might say, they find that what most
concerns these people is the economy and their place in it.... As far as
issues are concerned, “immigration” placed third among the matters such
voters care about, far behind their number one concern: “good jobs / the
economy.”
************
I'd remark in passing that we had a 'racist party' in Australia - indeed
that was all that was ever reported about them, and yes they were furiously
hostile to 'outsiders' and non-whites, but they too were massively
concerned about the devastation of the economy produced by free-market
ideologies - however that part of their project was rarely to never
reported - perhaps it could not be allowed to be a common topic of
discourse while racism could. I don't know... (I only know about it,
because the wife of a friend of mine was a member for a while, and because
of one newspaper article).
On another note- here is someone else arguing that Cruz is even worse than Trump...
https://theconversation.com/why-id-vote-for-donald-trump-55817
jon
UTS CRICOS Provider Code: 00099F
DISCLAIMER: This email message and any accompanying attachments may
contain confidential information.
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distribute or copy this message or
attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the
sender immediately and delete
this message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the
individual sender, except where the
sender expressly, and with authority, states them to be the views of the
University of Technology Sydney.
Before opening any attachments, please check them for viruses and defects.
Think. Green. Do.
Please consider the environment before printing this email.
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